Curse

~ Dan ~ · May 21, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

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Originally Posted by Mr. G

I do think this wins generalization of the year though

Damn straight. PvE'ers.. sit down.

DutchSmurf · May 21, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

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Originally Posted by Molock

No wonder stupid skills like Ursan are allowed to exist... that comment makes me sad

It is very much possible that this interview was done before Ursan became the problem it is now. Since most of the views in it seem outdated.

enter_the_zone · May 21, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

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Originally Posted by FoxBat

"Holy Trinity" was never the fastest build almost anywhere, but it was the easiest, which is important for pugging elite areas. In pugs you want to reduce the amount of skill involved to mitigate the consequences of playing with idiots. (Hence, Ursanway.) We can only pray they find other solutions in GW2, like more defined class roles.

Exactly, well said. The limited number of players still in the game also limits your choice of players for PUGs. A small pool of players, 70% of whom are stupid people, means a PUG nightmare. UB "fixes" that and, to a much lesser extent, so do H/H.

DarkNecrid · May 21, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

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Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

i say: from a pve players point of view That is not what I as a pve player want, Yes we do like the feeling of winning, we do want to feel epic. But do not think that a "static unchange" scenery in a game will hold our interest for too long.

That's nice it was obvious he was talking about "the majority".

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His bolded assumption is fundamentally wrong.

See above.

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Interesting solution, unfortunately I must say Izzy does not show any love for PvE. You cannot let a person who has such a low opinion and imagination of fun and interesting PvE gameplay make skills for both PvE and PvP.

That's probably because he is hired as a skill balancer, and anyone worth their salt doesn't balance around Player versus Environment, in a competitive game. Ever.

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One thing I cannot understand: They really respect farming as a valid form of gameplay. I would see it as a sub-division of PvE gameplay, but how on earth can they give farming such a high value? If a farming build gets destroyed, people farm something else, what is the problem?

Again, do I have to link to SR/SW/Paragon threads? It's more like, if a farming build gets destroyed, people bitch and moan, say they're gonna /delete their character, THEN go farm something else after they release Anet isn't going to revert it....

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PvP players could use better automated tournaments, interesting new maps and game modes, there are many more important things to do than to nerf and buff builds on a regular basis. Balancing skills is just the BASE, the minimum effort to make a PvP game good, but it needs more than that, sorry.

Better ATs: Yes please.

New maps: Fix the ones you already have plx. Some of them just suck.

Game Modes: Hell no. No need to split an already dying player base across more areas.

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Also, good PvE gameplay is not defined by overpowered skills versus hopeless mobs. ANet wanted to get away from power grind, and all their title additions to PvE favor grinding for minor skill improvements.

Their design changed fundamentally after Factions. Their original PvE design, after all, was to get you to play PvP, which is why all the desert missions are PvP game modes, and why you unlock stuff in it, and why originally there was no Balthazar Faction or PvP characters or...

This is why there WAS no grin. This is no longer the case, since people whined that the game that was advertised as being a COMPETITIVE experience, didn't have enough cooperative content/didn't want to play PvP. -_-

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Izzy is a hard hypocrite. He says they nerf skills that appear (HAHAhahHAhAhA OHOOHOH OMFG LMAO) to be overpowered, but ursan is still ruining pve. He says pve is important, but it's lame and too easy.

He doesn't balance/care about PvE. It doesn't need it, as long as the content is fundamentally "beatable" with reasonable skill bars, it's fine. If you get bored.......go play something else.

Sab · May 21, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

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Originally Posted by Rift

It's not that PVEers want overpowered things, it's that PVE is imbalanced by design.

Why is it that the only way to increase difficulty is to give enemy NPCs 10 more levels, increase their activation speeds and resilience, or producing unfair environmental conditions.

It's not fun to "epically" breeze through everything and anything. However, it's also not fun to constantly face areas where your tools/skills that are severely gimped compared to your opposition, to make up for AI deficiencies. Anyone who's vanquished Tyria can vouch for this; unless you're a masochist, the fun factor was quite low.

I think your complaint is more about AI limitations and the monotony of PvE, rather than "balance" as such.

Even though mobs are statistically better than human players, why does that suddenly mean PvE isn't fun? PvE is designed for the player to win. While it seems like the player is always at a severe disadvantage, after you learn the game it's really no contest - players win, all the time.

Nor does the "imbalance" of PvE justify the existence of overpowered skills. Players do not *need* overpowered skills - they can complete PvE content just fine without them. However, players *want* overpowered things so they can get to the rewards faster.

That's really the point of contention. While many PvErs dislike Ursan specifically, I've seen enough suggestions for Soul Reaping to be reverted, Paragons to be buffed, Splinter to go back, etc. that I'm quite convinced that PvErs don't want balance - they just want "feel epic while killing lots of things."

Bryant Again · May 21, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

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Originally Posted by Nightow

Right, Im not saying that Ursan Blessing is the correct answer but I am saying that we need to look at the original problem first (Not all professions equally appealing in high-end PvE gameplay) before we try to apply a quick fix (nerf UB).

There was no problem, only that PUGs believed there were. I can't get into groups as a Mesmer for the same reason I can't get into groups as an Imbagon: PUGs think that I'm a "useless" class. Granted, the Mesmer class doesn't fit too well into PvE, but that makes it far from useless. All professions can find equal success in PvE.

Making a balance decision based on PUGs is like having a PvP balance centered entirely on Random Arena (kudos to Avarre for that comparison).

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Originally Posted by Rift

It's not that PVEers want overpowered things, it's that PVE is imbalanced by design.

Why is it that the only way to increase difficulty is to give enemy NPCs 10 more levels, increase their activation speeds and resilience, or producing unfair environmental conditions.

It's not fun to "epically" breeze through everything and anything. However, it's also not fun to constantly face areas where your tools/skills that are severely gimped compared to your opposition, to make up for AI deficiencies. Anyone who's vanquished Tyria can vouch for this; unless you're a masochist, the fun factor was quite low.

Put level 30 archers in GVG, and you'll hear crying akin to when VIO had the potential of creating ridiculous NPC spikes.

You're forgetting one vital thing: the awful, terrible AI. Doesn't matter how hard they hit or how much health they have, I'm always going to kill them because they're dumb as hell. I don't need to be just as stupid to defeat them.

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Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Not missed, blatantly ignored, i dont think Anet intends to do anything about PvE skills, in fact GW2 will probably see more introduced.

For me PvE skills have nullified a lot of things that made this game as good as it was, i will definately take a good hard look at GW2 before i commit to buying it.

From what they've been saying in interviews, it sounds like the game will be soloable. I'm hoping this is true, because not only would they not have to worry about people having to group up, it would eliminate farming.

Celestial_Kitsune · May 21, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

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Originally Posted by Shuuda

But can't forums be seen as a microcosm? In which case it does have some represntation of what people want, it's not totally accurate, but forums be paint a picture of what the community is like.

Indeed, forums can provide a sense of preferences of a certain segment of population, but by no means it is a representative sample of GW population.

Darksun · May 21, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

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Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

That's a mighty wide brush he's painting with.

Thats the whole point of his job. He has to generalize as best he can. you can't make a system where everyone has different rules, so you have to take all the data & find the average. As much as you may not like it, he's right.

Angelic Upstart · May 21, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

From what they've been saying in interviews, it sounds like the game will be soloable. I'm hoping this is true, because not only would they not have to worry about people having to group up, it would eliminate farming.

Hmm personally i think the pugging side of things, back in the day was one of the better things about GW, farming however should be left as an option, those that want to do it, can and those that dont can go grind titles or whatever.

Rift · May 21, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

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Originally Posted by Sab

That's really the point of contention. While many PvErs dislike Ursan specifically, I've seen enough suggestions for Soul Reaping to be reverted, Paragons to be buffed, Splinter to go back, etc. that I'm quite convinced that PvErs don't want balance - they just want "feel epic while killing lots of things."

Although I can agree that many may use games to feel "epic" (which is in no way limited to PVE players), it's the statement that PVE doesn't want/care for balance that is hard to swallow. Balance is important to prevent the pollution caused by required classes, builds and even skills from high-level areas.

For many, GW was a stepping stone from the single player RPG (Diablo, Final Fantasy, Oblivion) into the Online RPG world because of its Free-to-Play approach. Such games were "balanced" in terms of skills, items, inter-class potential, and amusment factor, while still allowing the PVE player to feel "epic" by having a leveling system that allowed them to equal or surpass enemy NPCs.

For example, raise the level cap in PVE and suddenly Splinter becomes much more attractive (or at least on par with enemy NPC levels) in terms of number of enemies affected, without "imbalancing" the skill itself.

I don't think SR, Paras or SW should be or will be reverted; the introduction of different skill effects for PVE and PVP will be used to prevent further nerfs to key skills to be propagated to the PVE world, since they simply don't have the resources to properly assess, test, and balance the impact on the PVE game and its community.

DarkNecrid · May 21, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

He was talking about the majority of PvE players.

Christ.

The PvE only players who want a balance and are ok with PvP nerfing their shit is a minority. Thats obvious from in-game just as well as the forums.

EDIT:
Whether you like it or not, this game and it's community has changed. I don't like it either, I happened to of rather liked the original game design of PvE leading everyone to PvP, but the former got that changed. I happened to of liked no grind, but the former got that changed to. So.

Res Ipsi · May 21, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

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Originally Posted by Rift

... it's the statement that PVE doesn't want/care for balance that is hard to swallow. Balance is important to prevent the pollution caused by required classes, builds and even skills from high-level areas.

Excellent point. In discussing the issue of PvE "balance" with friends, an interesting point was raised: Why didn't ANet simply randomize the skill bars used by the AI so that every time you entered an instance, you'd never know what to expect? This would probably have reduced the number of farming bots as well, but would that be such a bad thing?

DarkNecrid · May 21, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

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Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Excellent point. In discussing the issue of PvE "balance" with friends, an interesting point was raised: Why didn't ANet simply randomize the skill bars used by the AI so that every time you entered an instance, you'd never know what to expect? This would probably have reduced the number of farming bots as well, but would that be such a bad thing?

Because the AI would still suck.

Rift · May 21, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

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Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Excellent point. In discussing the issue of PvE "balance" with friends, an interesting point was raised: Why didn't ANet simply randomize the skill bars used by the AI so that every time you entered an instance, you'd never know what to expect? This would probably have reduced the number of farming bots as well, but would that be such a bad thing?

I'm not sure it would work since GW is still an instanced game. Players would simply map in and out until the "random" confrontation that is most favorable to them appears.

I think this would become a more of an annoyance for the typical player. Just look at random boss spawns in Tyria vs. set boss spawns in Elona and the impact it has had on Skill Hunters.

Longasc · May 21, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Maybe someone should ask Izzy what he meant, he already mentioned that his wording is sometimes not the best.

BTW, such statements can easily be used in your favor to say "I did not want to say what I said, I meant it different" later. :P

Bryant Again · May 21, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

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Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Hmm personally i think the pugging side of things, back in the day was one of the better things about GW, farming however should be left as an option, those that want to do it, can and those that dont can go grind titles or whatever.

But those "pugging days" only lasted a while, and it's never something you can fully sustain and bring back. It just happened because it happened: people were settling into a new game, getting the feel of it. Then came the "other people" and things started to take a turn to a more negative side. This happens with most online games, and no amount of pugging incentive will bring it back.

I'm not saying to remove farming. I'm saying the need to remove farming specific builds. I believe it introduced pretty much a whole new section of balancing that devs had to take note of, among PvE and PvP.

Greedy Gus · May 21, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

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Originally Posted by Longasc

Maybe someone should ask Izzy what he meant, he already mentioned that his wording is sometimes not the best.

What part of the interview was unclear? It all seems pretty clear, even predictable.

Longasc · May 21, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

What part of the interview was unclear? It all seems pretty clear, even predictable.

Isaiah Cartwright mentioned that his "wording is not always the best" on his wikipage some time ago. Miscommunication and misinterpretation leading to turmoil would not be something new, see icy dragon sword availability, mini polar bear and some logged gaile talk.

At least I would prefer that to devs really believing that because "pve people love overpowered skills and farming" giving them more of them would make the game any better.

Creeping Carl · May 21, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

To those who are crying about Izzy generalizing PVE'ers with a wide brush, you're in complete denial. He's completely correct in that in general, PVE players want to be overpowered or at least content with it. Just look at the many update threads, SR threads, AOE threads, UB threads, etc etc.

We PVE players have no one else to blame for this generalisation but ourselves.

pumpkin pie · May 22, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

That's nice it was obvious he was talking about "the majority".

ermmmmmmmm, thats my opinion.

and why I let my opinion be known? So that the developer will know that is not what some of the players wants, if you do not give feedback, then the one chance that stupid nerf will be stop from happening is lost !